Skip to main content

Week 3 [17.10-23.10.2016] What are von Neumann probes and why don’t we see them everywhere?



                Von Neumann probe is a name given to a theoretical type of spacecraft with the unique feature of being able to produce and send its copies to other places. For example, the probe is sent from earth to any planet, where from basic elements available two copies are produced and sent to two new different planets.
                It may seem like a very advanced device and indeed it is, but wouldn’t we be able to build them today? Artificial intelligence systems and humanoid robots are getting more and more effective. Very soon we should be able to make a robot that can construct its copy from spare parts and, if programmed accordingly, it could perform any mechanical task that humans can. We have nuclear sources of power that can work for hundreds of years.
        I think that economy is a much more limiting factor here today than technology. Technologically, we are very close to creating the von Neumann probe and if we united our efforts,  we would probably build one.
                So, what about the travel time? With huge distances it would take extremely long for such a probe to get anywhere. Or maybe not really that long? In the 50s scientist designed something called a nuclear propulsion system (project Orion) using current technology. It is the type of space ‘engine’ using detonations of miniature nuclear warheads to propel the spacecraft. This type of propulsion could achieve constant acceleration of 1 g over many years. For example, sending such a type of spaceship to the nearest star – Proxima Centauri - would take around 40 years (with the average speed being around 10% of the speed of light).
                But even if we assumed the average speed of just 1% of the speed of light we could get to tens of thousands other systems in less than 100 thousand years (1000 lightyears distance). This for sure seems like a lot of time but if we consider life on earth has existed for at least 3.8 billion years it does not look that long anymore.
                Now consider the exponential growth of von Neumann probe operations. Let’s assume that the probe travels for an average time of 500 years before it lands on a new planet. It then requires 500 years to build and send two of its copies. Excluding accidents and failures (their effects can be reduced by sending more than 1 probe at the beginning) number of probes (and visited planets) doubles every 1000 years. So after about 10 000 years we have over 1000 probes and planets visited. Considering very low average speed (worst case scenario: no development of better propulsions) and a very long time for each probe to make its  copies, it is still possible to visit every single planet in the galaxy in 5 million years. 5 million years is a blink of an eye compared to the age of the galaxy.
                We can take it further. By nature of the exponential growth (next powers of 2 every 1000 years in this example) it wouldn’t take much more time for von Neumann probes to convert all of the planets in the galaxy to its copies.
                During many billion years of our galaxy’s existence if any civilization had developed von Neumann probes (and we are currently not that far from it) they would have had  enough time (hundreds of thousands times over) to ‘be’ everywhere. Then why don’t we see our galaxy filled with such constructs? I consider at least two interesting possible explanations:
  •        Every civilization destroys itself with its own technology (imagine printing thermonuclear weapons on 3D printer in your garage in 50 years from now) just before they are able to develop and build von Neumann probes.
  •         We would not exist in a galaxy where such a probe had been built, because probes would turn everything into its copies and we couldn’t ever appear. Therefore, according to the anthropic principle, it looks like we live in a galaxy where von Neumann probes haven’t been created yet, regardless of the very high probability that it should happen in any given galaxy.



Drawing 1: Example simulation of von Neumann colonization compared to the galactic timeline; source: http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/cosmo/lectures/lec28.html (October 2016)

Comments

Now that's interesting - indeed, our technology is progressing so far that I hope we won't develop our biggest technological achievement, that will also be our last one ;).

The whole concept of space and it's exploring is very interesting, but considering we explored a super small tiny percent of it makes me wonder if we ever discover any new life out there, be it with this method or another one.
Unknown said…
Actually self replicating machines could makes us go extinct just as well as nuclear weapons.

They are part of the plot in many science fiction books and movies. For example the replicators from the Stargate tv series, are by far most dangerous enemy encountered during 10 seasons.
Unknown said…
As far as propulsion is conserned I heard that we can biult ion engine but to operate well it should be as big as city. But I can be wrong. We remember that the first computer was as big as a room. Maybe after the next global war we will be able to make good propulsion system.
Unknown said…
As far as propulsion is conserned I heard that we can biult ion engine but to operate well it should be as big as city. But I can be wrong. We remember that the first computer was as big as a room. Maybe after the next global war we will be able to make good propulsion system.
Unknown said…
This is amazing. What people can achieve I mean. The technology and science is developing so fast that even we are considering traveling through the galaxy or even the time! (Maybe too fast to talk about it but still we have it somewhere in mind). Exploring the galaxy is something that always interested people..."Are we alone here?". I think that if we keep working on this concept, maybe it will not be impossible anymore to learn more about other worlds out there. The technology improves so fast, maybe even during our lives we will be able to extend our knowledge enough to build some good system which will enable us to explore more. We will see.
Unknown said…
I agree with that wars has made us develop technology much faster. But with current power of weapons our next global war could be the last one.

Ion egines are diffrent technology and they are already used in probes. They are very efficient. Tha main reason why poject orion type drive hasn't been developed further is huge risk of nucelar contamination when sending nuclear fueal to outer space. And also nuclear weapons are banned in space.
Unknown said…
Ion engines can definitely cause a revolution in many ares. As you have mentioned, there is a huge risk of contamination but I hope it will be relaunch soon. Why? Because the US and Russia have another cold war. There’ re some agreement that bans using nuclear weapon in space buy how long will we respect them?
As the life shows when you try sth once, you will try it another times. Combining chemistry and physics is very fascinating buy it could be deadly.
Unknown said…
It's an interesting concept I've never really heard about. It could potentially lead to discovering and mapping the whole galaxy.

Same as with your "other life forms" article, I think it's safe to assume that we didn't find those probes because there is no such awesome civilisation like ours in Milky way yet.

However, the time seems to be the key factor here. Even the smallest network of discovered planets is going to appear after 2000 years of probing. A decent network after 3500 years. What are the chances humanity exists in its current form after that time? Seriously, it was like 300 years ago that we burned people alive for being witches. It's safe to assume a lot is going to change in 2000 years, with high possibility of humanity destroying itself.

One more thought. We have a robot that is sent on a planet, eats a part of it, creates two more robots that are sent on other planets to eat a part of it and multiply. You know what you created? A space parasite that feasts on planets and keeps multiplying. Let's not do that.
Unknown said…
It seems amazing. Hovewer I would not be so optimistic about this project. Humans cannot coexist with each other, we love to figth, and probably will eradicate ourselves before creating such probe. I think it is probable that we would be more determined to cooperate if such device would come to our system. Because we cooperate only when we are scared.
Maciej Główka said…
This is very interesting article. To be honest, i have never heard about Von Neumann probes. I think, that visiting and colonizating other planets is crucial for our species to survive. What's more, I am pretty sure, that we will see soon first human expedition to Mars.
I agree with you, that Von Neumann probes might be a good way to find out planets with good conditions and maybe also find other civilizations. However, there need to be cooperation between nations to create for example Von Neumann probes, new, faster engines and as we see from current world situation, this might be the biggest problem we are facing.
Unknown said…
Have you heard, that Elon Musk had a confernce, where he was talking about colonizating Mars? There is a plan, that in 2025 group of people will start living there.
Unknown said…
I have never herad about von Neumann probe, but this is really interesting and many thoughts came to my mind while reading this article.
Things listed there are really amazing and I belive that there are people trying to make this come true, what is unbelievable: what people can do, what they want to do. But at the same time there is a fear, how it could be used? I think, that such technology and achievements can make someone really powerfull, and there is a question: What this person would do with this?
Unknown said…
But all you have to do is send the first probe (or few of them). They would continue to replicate and explore the galaxy even if humanity went extinct the day after.
Unknown said…
That's my favorite explanation for not seeing those probes everywhere. The more scarry part is that it seems to me universal for most civilizations.
Unknown said…
"and there is a question: What this person would do with this?" If they would be able to control it at all... There is a variant of von Neumann probe called Berserk probe. Look it up.
Piotr Basiński said…
Very interesting article. It was unforgettable experience to read about that. Probably someone will produce interesting sci-fi movie based on that knowledge.
100 thousand years for human civilisation is like billion for earth. We are not sure if we fly now to other planet and maybe after 200 years human race invent better way to travel in space, last sent spaceship become a garbage.
Unknown said…
Great article :) Von Neumann probes is really interesting topic but shame it's still just a theory. I'm also curious about this project Orion. If this space engine was built then people finally could go to the Mars. Unfortunately I think in the near future about these kind of exploration of the universe we can see only in the movies. Still this is all just theory, isn't supported by technology.
I think there is one big error in all of this. The probes must have all the resources needed to replicate and that would be the main failure problem of the whole concept I think. Robot needs a lot of parts to build, replicating, creating and whole technology process is not an easy one. Some of the processes exists only in special environment ultra clean air, fire needed to burn metal etc. Sorry for me as for now it's just pure fantasy.
Unknown said…
It's very interesting presentation. I'm curious, when people build a robot that will be able to reproduce. With this presentation, I learned how work the nuclear propulsion and lots of other stuff.
Unknown said…
It's very interesting presentation. I'm curious, when people build a robot that will be able to reproduce. With this presentation, I learned how work the nuclear propulsion and lots of other stuff.
Unknown said…
The idea that the machine can make copies of itself just blew my mind. Why? It’s such a simple idea taken from the nature we live in. It wasn’t obvious to me at all. Animals have this powerful ability of “making copies” of themselves. So why machines shouldn’t have it?
Yes, if our ancestors would have built it - we would have much more information about other plants now. I think that NASA or SpaceX should think about the concept of such machines.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but maybe the other reason why the space industry isn’t developing so fast is because it isn’t so profitable and it’s not a number one priority for all countries.
In the future when I’d have more experience in software development - I’d like to contribute to such project as a volunteer by writing a software for gathering data about planets in our galaxy.

Thanks for sharing this interesting and complex concept. Great food for a brain :)
Michał Pycek said…
I want to thak you for your presentation, it is interesting and eyes opening, and to be honest I have not heard much about it.
I think it is in our reach to actually send first people to Mars in order to begin the exploration of the planet so that in some years it may be our civilization's second home. However, it would require enormous preparation for both the people as well as the equipment, examinations, environment, dangers, opportunities etc.
Also, I agree that it seems that the space industry has slowed down a bit, in comparison to the actions it has been taking many decades ago. Therefore I think that it should continue working on the machines, technology and plans of going forward with the space missions development. We are talking about different planets here, different world which is still unknown for us humans. Even if the technology would enable it for us to visit or move there, it would have to be people which would adjust to the conditions which they would face.
Unknown said…
Von Neumann probes are another proof of human's power. If anyone needs it.

First of all, the idea. 50 years ago, people didn't even think about such inventions. Not only because of technology, but also the way of thinking. I mean there was a lot to do here, on Earth.

Second, increase of technology is huge. It's not linear growth, but much more. Cubic? I'm not sure. It's truly amazing that such a thing is happening literally before our eyes. I know (as IT guy) I contribute to it directly, but it amazes me all the time.

Finally, interests. Apart from capabilities, people were always interested in exploring the Galaxy (as Agnieszka told). Referring to your second article, I think another life will be discovered faster than we suppose.

To sum up, von Neumann probe is invention that gives us a lot of possibilities. I think it will contribute to even stronger technological growth, but I'm not sure if humanity is ready for this.
Moode said…
is is very interesting topic, i think it could happen after we build our first teleportation system,
i mean now you can’t even teleport a coin from one place to another let say in the same room :),
so to make Von Neumann probe happen in my opinion not possible at least now a days.
Unknown said…
That's an intresting idea. It the game Mass Effect it was mentioned that they sent hybernation pod spaceship but until it arrived the humanity discovered faster than light travel and colonized the galaxy. When people on that ship arrived to target plant it hadalready been colonized by humans.
Unknown said…
Yes. Economy is main reason crippling space exploration. Maybe in the future people will realize that it's better to spend money for making it possible to leave our planet (and survive as species longer than conditions on our planet will allow) that for churches and wars.
kondrat said…
I've heard! Thats awesome, that one guy tries to change the humanity's future. Autonomous electric cars, PowerWalls, reusable rocket, and now- colonization of Mars. We are lucky to live in such interesting times ;)
Unknown said…
I think Neumann probes may exist somewhere in our galaxy, or generally in the space created by a better-developed civilizations, but certainly it is, so far that it would take to many years to come to our planet. I don't have to explain the distances in space. There is a chance that civilization, which is ahead of us in technology and is aware about our existence does not want to aim the probes to our world. They don't want to disturb us. For example, in South America, there are tribes which don't even know the fire and it is hightly forbidden to visit them.
Kacper Zaremba said…
I really perceive Elon Musk as a real visionary. I hope his plans of colonization of Mars and popularising autonomous electric cars will succeed. I strongly recommend reading his biography - https://www.amazon.com/Elon-Musk-SpaceX-Fantastic-Future/dp/0062301233 - it tells great story about his childhood and all of his startup ideas.
Adam Nowak said…
I like the "anthropic principle" explanation. It's obvious, that if there was some alien civilization similar to us in our galaxy, we would be doomed. Only reason that explain our desire to explore galaxy and meet aliens is to reproduce. To reproduce we need resources and space. We can be sure that when we meet aliens like us, they will have the same goals like us. It means, that they will colonise every habitable planet. And if they are like us, they will colonise planets like Earth. It means, that existence of several alien civilisations in proximity is impossible. They will simply kill each other for space and resources. So, if we are still alive, it means that we don't have neighbours like us, thus we don't see alien von Neumann probes.
Or maybe our Earth life is some sort of alien self-replicating "probe"?
Intresting topic. Honestly, I have never heard about von Neumann probes theory. After reading this article I had also googled that phrase and it turned out that this topic is much broader and there are other variants like Berserkers or Bracewell. I wish I had more time to read about them.
Anyway, I lean towards the explanation based on economic and organizational problems. For sure, it is not technology what is stopping us from building and sending von Neumann probes. It would be a huge project, costing a lot of money and involving lots of people. In my opinion it is the human factor what would be the greatest weakness here. Similarly, this may be true for other civilizations also.
Yes I agree. When we would create self replicating machines it could be our doom.

As we all know there is no software without bugs so there is a huge chance that there will be glitch in this machines and they will annihilate us because of it.
Wojtek Kania said…
In nowadays technology is on very high level. This what’s the ordered of the day, was only dream. I hope so, that this very fast technological develpments will be faster. I think the people will work in that and it’s possible to know more.
Interesting idea. It could be the way to discover space as now we have only discovered a very small part of it (because of many things). We will see what time would bring us.
I think it is not possible for now, maybe in a few years.
Honestly, I have not heard about von Neumann probes theory, so I'm glad I got to read this article about it. Machine which copy itsefl? That is insane. But in a good way. So many opportunities would come with that. Probably technology is not the thing that stops us from it. Even though when we think about it globally, that 100 years it's not such a long time, everyone would like to see some results. And why on earth companies would invest in something that can't show results in short time? And when there is actually posibility that they may never see any results of millions dolars invested in it. I understand that. I hope that von Neumann probes become real thing and we are going to be able to send them. And that it will change course of our future.
I heard a bit about von Neumann probes before, but I'm glad you presented us with this information. I learned more and understand the concept a little bit better now.
For sure, economy is one of the main reasons. Unfortunately, our technology is still way to primitive in order to colonise the Galaxy and this is the other major reason. Nevertheless, I really enjoyed the article. It was a bit like a speech on scientific concepts by Michio Kaku.
Unknown said…
Isn't this basically the same question as the previous article? We don't see them everywhere because of Fermi Paradox. Other than that, I like to think a civilization advanced enough to create such probes wouldn't be careless and stupid enough to actually release a device that strips other planets of resources just to replicate itself and strip more planets of resources.

Popular posts from this blog

Week 12 (12.01-18.01.15) Are you an early bird or a night owl ?

Owls are nocturnal creatures. They’re wide awake at night and they sleep during the day. If this sounds like bliss to you, then, like about 20 percent of the population who find themselves most active at around 9 pm, you may fall into the same category as our feathered friend. Night owls often have difficulty waking up in the morning, and like to be up late at night.  Studies of animal behaviour indicate that being a night owl may actually be built into some people’s genes. This would explain why those late-to-bed, late-to-rise people find it so difficult to change their behaviour. The trouble for night owls is that they just have to be at places such as work and school far too early. This is when the alarm clock becomes the night owl’s most important survival tool. Experts say that one way for a night owl to beat their dependence on their alarm clocks is to sleep with the curtains open. The Theory is that if they do so, the morning sunlight will awaken them gently and natura...

Week 11 [03-09.06.2019] The problem with ecological cars emission in UK

The problem with ecological cars emission in UK Since the adoption of the European Emission Allowance Directive in the European Parliament, all car makers have tried to submit. Since 1992, the Euro I standard has been in force, which limited the emission of carbon monoxide to the atmosphere. The Euro VI standard currently applies, which limits the series of exhaust gases. These include: hydrocarbons, nitrogen and carbon oxides, and dust.   The most significant change was brought by the Euro IV standard. For the first time it introduced the limitation of nitrogen oxides, which are responsible for the harmful compounds of smog.   What is smog?   Smog consists of sulfur oxides, nitrogen and carbon. In addition, solid substances such as suspended dust (PM). Dust suspend in atmospheric aerosols may be in liquid and solid form. These can be particles of sea salt, clouds from the Sahara and artificial compounds made by people. These compounds...

Week 4 [06-12.11.2017] This is what happens when you reply to spam email.

James Veitch is a British comedian. In today’s Ted Talk James with characteristic for himself a sense of humor shows how he deals with spam emails and why responding to junk messages may be sometimes dangerous. Questions: What do you think about James’s  way of dealing with spam? Why are junk messages legal, even though it sometimes may be a fraud? Dou you have a problem with spam? How do you deal with with it?