Hi,
I would like to talk with you about philosophy and consideration of non-human animals. Awareness of animal suffering is more ubiquitous than ever before. It also looks like the trend of fighting for animal rights is constantly growing. I'm hoping for a cultural and friendly discussion!
Questions:
1. Do you think it is possible/probable that our descendants will look on us and our treatment of non-human animals with the same reaction as we are looking at the shameful and horrible parts of history?
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods,
being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc.
1. Do you think it is possible/probable that our descendants will look on us and our treatment of non-human animals with the same reaction as we are looking at the shameful and horrible parts of history? For testing cosmetics and hurting them yes. For storing them in a tight cage propably yes. But for just eating the ones we were taught to eat I think no.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy? Tough one. I would say becuase of propably hundreds of years some animals were used in certain ways. Pigs for meat mostly and fat, chicken for eggs, feathers and meat, while cats and dogs were more of companion animal. They were higher in the rank tough they helped us survive almost like other animals. Cats for example tend to hunt mice and others which could destroy our winter supplies for example. Propably because of how many years our ancestor used those animals more like partners and because we tend to live with them under same roof while cows, pigs and other in seperate place, made us more emotional about them and we treat them like part of our family.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods, being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc. it would be cheaper to do it? Would you do it? Our ancestor were mostly vegans for big amount of time as meat wasn't so easy to acquire. It was served during some holy days or family gathering like wedding. So I wouldn't mind eating things made from non-meat sources as I don't mind it know, it is nice alternative also somewhat healthy, but I would never become only vegan. I believe from time to time let's say few days in a month I would love to eat some meat.
Hi Karol, thanks for your input! I'd love to eat some meat as well, and I'm not entirely sure why do you think it is ok, even though it directly implies such treatment of animals? The ancestor argument doesn't convince me.
Answering the first question, I think that this is possible. I mean, maybe they will not be as shocked as they should be while thinking for example of Auschwitz, because the harm happening to other humans will always be a little bit more harmful to think about than the harm happening to for example cows. Although, both of them, humans and cows, are living creatures which deserve respect and their rights to live.
I feel like what we eat and what we don’t is just the cultural fact. We were growing up with dogs, cats and hamsters. Since we were born we’ve treated them like family. 90% of us have also never seen a real cow or pig. This is why we don’t really feel their pain because their existence is not as obvious for us as the existence of our pets which have been with us everyday for our whole lives. Of course, we know what cows look like, but have we ever touched it? Talked with it, just like we do with our dogs? I wouldn’t say this is because we prefer dogs to cows, I would say that this is because in our culture we do not have cows in our homes as parts of families. But if we did, if I was born with a cow or pig right next to my bed and spent my whole life with it, I guess, I would never even think about eating it.
I was thinking about becoming vegetarian so many times. This summer I had a chance to visit my boyfriend’s sister, who is living in Swiss and is vegan. We’ve been there for 10 days and it was 10 days of vegan diet. And honestly - it was the best 10 days of my life. I loved the food so much. It was delicious, I would even say it was much better than normal food. But the thing was that it was so expensive and not as easy to make as chicken… But if it was cheaper, easier, and everything you mentioned in your question, I think I would really love to try.
Hi Magdalena, thanks for the comment! I agree with you that "the harm happening to other humans will always be a little bit more harmful to think about than the harm happening to animals". I also totally get your point about a vegan diet being expensive, especially if you wanna eat meat/diary alternatives on daily basis. On the other hand, as far as I know, the vegan/vegetarian diet could be even cheaper if you think about it or do some research. I don't want to recommend any diet, but if you are determined and consult your goal with dietitians* you could be living "best ten days of your life" everyday :)
*I don't think that you have to consult with a dietitian to be healthy on such a diet. It would imply that it is easy to do it in the wrong way. I think it is just the most reasonable thing to do if you don't have any knowledge or experience with diets of any sort.
1. I think it is possible. Take, for example, egg farming. Back in the day, no one had a clue about how eggs were bred. For several years, there has been a growing awareness of people that the eggs were laid by chickens that lived in cramped cages, were stuffed with filth and never saw the light of day. Currently, all the people I know buy bio eggs. They are aware that an animal that lives in such terrible conditions cannot be healthy, so the egg they bear will be even more unhealthy. I think most people also have a certain loathing of the breeders of such chickens. I think the same may happen soon with animals raised for meat. Social movements and raising people's awareness can lead to animals being raised in better conditions and memories of the past becoming a source of shame.
2. I think this is a very cultural issue. Personally, I wouldn't eat many animals. I would not eat a rabbit, a deer, or a dolphin because I value these animals too much. On the other hand, I would not eat a dog, horse or pigeon because it would be slightly disgusting to me. In Peru, eating guinea pigs, or in China, eating dogs is the order of the day. Objectively speaking, the suffering of one animal is not worth more or less than the suffering of another. We should not require other cultures to stop eating what we don't like that they are eating. However, no matter what animal is eaten by which culture, it should have the best conditions and should be killed humanely.
3. Unfortunately, for health reasons, meat is one of the few things I can eat at the moment. However, I would love to live in a world where I don't have to eat meat and no animal has to suffer (John Lennon - Imagine playing in the backgroun)
Btw. I hate these troglodytes which say things like: a dish must have two kinds of meat to be sure that more than one animal has died.
1. Do you think it is possible/probable that our descendants will look on us and our treatment of non-human animals with the same reaction as we are looking at the shameful and horrible parts of history?
It may be possible. It depends on how society will grow, and how our eating habits are going to change. For now, avoiding meat is rather expensive and the flavor of dishes that are supposed to be similar to meat isn't perfect, but maybe in the future we will be able to do something with it.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
I think it's more of an emotional issue. Fluffy was my friend, so I wouldn't eat him. I also wouldnt eat a chicken, if I had it as a pet.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods, being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc. it would be cheaper to do it? Would you do it?
Yes, if there was sucha possibility, I would try it. For now it's too expensive for me, so I didn't even have an opportunity to try any food that tries to copy meat's flavor.
1. Do you think it is possible/probable that our descendants will look on us and our treatment of non-human animals with the same reaction as we are looking at the shameful and horrible parts of history? If to talk about using animals for food, it seems to me that it will be almost no negative reaction. People did, do and will do even more sick and shame actions. Moreover, I am sure that our descendants will continue to eat meat. But if to talk about the treatment of non-human animals for products testing, here it is probable. In the food industry, there is also an exception: raising geese for the production of foie gras. The situations like testing cosmetics on rabbits, growing animals for the leather and fur are disgusting. Nowadays we can make warm clothes and good cosmetics without torturing animals.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy? First of all, I think the reason is about affection for pets. Often people see their cats or dogs as a family member and after its death owners bury pet as a human. That is why it is unacceptable to eat them. Secondly, eating meat that you bought in the supermarket or your pet after killing are two incompatible things. Even though a lot of people eat meat, not so many of us can kill an animal on our own.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods, being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc. it would be cheaper to do it? Would you do it? If the statements above will be true I will at least try. I am not a vegetarian but it was a period when I wasn`t allowed to eat meat. And to be honest, I never got full and always wanted to eat.
1. Do you think it is possible/probable that our descendants will look on us and our treatment of non-human animals with the same reaction as we are looking at the shameful and horrible parts of history?
Honestly, I don't think so. An amount of people on the world are constantly increasing. Nowadays a huge group of mankind is starving. I think that in the future this problem won't disappear and to the opposite it'll touch more of us. So in my opinion the process of breeding will stay increased.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
I'm not a huge fan of meat but probably it's because of cute pictures which go around through the Internet.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods
I don't think so. It's not enough for true meat-lovers. Additionally, our growth and evolution were possible because of the fact that people were starting to eat meat.
being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc.
It's a good idea. Not for become a vegetarian or vegan but for decline a consumption of meat.
it would be cheaper to do it?
Absolutely not. Vege-foods (like tofu) are often distasteful. To make it possible to eat the cook need to have strong skills in the kitchen.
1. In the very distant future, I think this scenario is possible. Animals these days are often bred in dramatic environmental conditions only to end up at the butcher. If animals are bred in a traditional way, where they have greater freedom and a more relaxed lifestyle, eating them is not bad in my opinion. However, if they are kept in cages without access to the sun and are force-fed with food that is supposed to make them more meat, then I consider it to be animal abuse. 2. I guess we don't eat our pets because we knew them and got used to them. There is nothing strange in this, if we buy meat that is processed and packed in a clean container, we do not identify with an animal some of which lies in this container, we hope that it had a good life and that eating it does not hurt him. If, however, we were to process the meat of a cat that has accompanied us for many years, we feel disgust because we treat him as part of the family and not an animal. 3. Eating animals is not a bad idea. If animals are free and caught by humans, that's nature, each species is somewhere in the species hierarchy, and each has a different species to eat and by which it is eaten. Even if being a vegan would be very simple and cheaper, I would not give up eating meat or fish because I do not see anything wrong with it, as long as the animals are free.
That's a very important topic! Sorry for my long answer, but I feel like a short one wouldn't do it justice.
I’m certain that our descendants will be disappointed with our actions because I’m already disappointed with other people’s attitudes. As mentioned in the video, you can’t really persuade or discuss this topic with people who just don’t care. But what really strikes me, is that so many people, who swear to be animal lovers are still saying that reducing their consumption of meat is too hard or too expensive. Let’s start with prices, vegetables and fruits are far cheaper than meat and they’re more filling without giving you a heartburn or high cholesterol. Moreover, many discount stores like Lidl, sell an expansive range of plant-based products in the same price range as regular dairy products, they also have a wide variety of meat substitutes like vegan patties and plant-based minced ‘meat’, again in the same price range as the originals. As goes for taste, this is really personal, and you can’t force anyone to like something that they don’t. Unfortunately, many people associate being vegan with only eating lettuce without any seasoning, and they couldn’t be more wrong. The internet is filled with the tastiest and at the same time healthiest recipes. Many of them include spices from all over the world, allowing you to experience a whole new level of taste.
I was on the flexitarian diet since middle school, so believe me when I say it that it’s hard to change, and sometimes exclude yourself from your family’s traditions and habits, but it’s not impossible if you really want it. Flexitarian diet means mostly eating vegetarian products, but indulging in meat products from time to time. In my case, I was mostly eating vegetarian, but I used to order sushi on my birthdays as a treat. I’ve gone fully vegetarian for over a year now, and if I’m using animal products like dairy, eggs or honey I order it from my friends or nearby farmers, so I know almost exactly how they treat their animals. I hope it covers the question of why I wouldn’t eat Fluffy. As mentioned in the video, we seem to care more about animals with which we can develop some sort of bond, and there is a big issue with the consumption of fish and other marine animals. In fact, when I ask for a vegetarian option, for example on a business trip, people often suggest eating a fish. We’re not exactly close to fishes and we can’t much emphasize with them, as they don’t vocalize their pain. If you would like to see more about this topic I recommend you to check out this video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/y8Nj1-YZDlc
If anyone reading this is still not convinced that going on a plant-based diet is within your reach, I would like to give an example of my friend who’s been vegan for 10 years and lives in a small village in southern Poland. She’s not a farmer, she works remotely in a headhunter firm. Even though she lives far from fancy stores with a limitless range of products, she still manages to get around, because you can buy vegetables anywhere. It’s a small neighbourhood, so everyone knows each other and so she asked the store nearby to order vegan substitutes for meat. So there you have it, it’s possible to be vegan/vegetarian on a budget, wherever you live and whatever cuisine you prefer, the only thing that it takes is an effort.
Maciej Antonik Thanks for the comment! I loved your comment "I don't have to eat meat and no animal has to suffer (John Lennon - Imagine playing in the background)"! 😂 I'd love to live in such a world as well! We as individuals can do a lot to take as close to that place? Have you considered any action, that one person could take?
Anastasiia Bida Thanks for the input! I don't think that what you've said is completely clear for me. "... If to talk about using animals for food, it seems to me that it will be almost no negative reaction. " and " People did, do and will do even more sick and shame actions." In both of these sentences, you agree that it is shameful and sick as there are more of such actions that human perform. But also it seems that you said that if people do something for a long time it becomes acceptable. I don't think it is the case. We can see that we develop morally and don't do things that in the past was acceptable or we do things that in the past was unacceptable but we've realised that it is good and we shouldn't hesitate.
Could you clear up my doubts? What is the difference between meat production and cosmetic/drug testing if in both of these industries animals are suffering enormously?
I'm also happy you would try this lifestyle not only a diet. If you have some free time check out if those stated conditions aren't met already!
Milena Dziełakowska Thanks for the comment! The first point you make is really important and smart! However, as far as I know, it is far from the truth. If we would use the food/land that we use for producing forage for developed countries we would be able to completely get rid of world hunger. If you are interested in the data that support that statement I would be happy to add some or you could check it out yourself :).
And to address this passage: "Additionally, our growth and evolution were possible because of the fact that people were starting to eat meat." We are far beyond such times! We can think about what is good for our health, climate and suffering of animals!
Piotr Góralski I'm thankful for your comment because it addresses many of my concerns about this topic. You argued that when animals are free and are able to roam wherever they want it is ok to kill them. And I don't think so. Additionally, I haven't heard about the production of meat that wouldn't make an animal suffer. We want to have meat as cheap as possible as fast as possible, there is no way to meet those conditions and be treat humanly the animals (but I don't understand what is humane in killing other sentient beings).
Gabriela Szczesna Hi Gabriela! I was looking forward to answering your comment as I really enjoyed your presentation about oceans! You've perfectly described the way I see this problem. It is really not that hard to change your diet/lifestyle as you've clearly pointed out! I'm glad we have similar perspective! However, you have added the video about fishes and their suffering. I'd like to add information about honey and eggs! Feel free to comment on that as well!
1. I think our world changes now so fast, so it is possible for sure that next generation will look at eating animals completely different. I believe that treating animals will change for a better. Year by year the more people became a vegetarian. Sometimes even vegan. It please me very much because I care about animals lives. But I also believe, that next generation will look at us with understanding. It is hard to make big changes in society, when for a thousand years something was normal, and no one was able to see it in different way. For sure it is harder to step up and make some changes than be born in already changed world and judge ancestors. Of course todays meat industry is shameful and horrible. But I believe that next generation will understand behaviour of their grandparents. For some people changes are very hard, even if necessary.
2. I wouldn’t eat Fluffy because I generally don’t eat meat. But I suppose that people eating meat wouldn’t eat Fluffy because of common approach to not eat domestic animals. Of course I don’t know why pigs, chickens and other does count to eatable animals. I suppose it started thousand years ago, while homo sapience started to breed animals. Maybe it was because of easiness to breed herbivorous animals. Maybe dogs and cats wasn’t so gentle as cows and pigs. I guess that Fluffy became a member of family. They growth special filling for him. He was bought/adopted to be their partner in live. I think all this has start in early years of homo sapience existence.
3. I already don’t eat meat. I didn’t have trouble because of meat flavour and taste. I have a lot of empathy, imagination and knowledge about meat industry. My feelings was bigger than miss of taste. But I have never been very meat gourmet so I understand others problems. And I keep my fingers crossed for those who have problem with that and wish them strong resistance. I biggest problems about vegetarianism are lack of vege dishes in some restaurants. But in Warsaw I can’t complain. Another problem are dinners at my parents/grandparents homes. They all eat meat. I am the only vegetarian. Sometimes I feel like trouble for them when I refuse to eat meat. Especially when my grandma look at me like on poor child. I understand they behaviour. They were told, that it is unhealthy to not eat meat. It is hard for them to believe in new point of view. I understand that, but sometimes it is hard to explain them my decision again and again. But I see it as a worry.
1. Do you think it is possible/probable that our descendants will look on us and our treatment of non-human animals with the same reaction as we are looking at the shameful and horrible parts of history?
In my opinion its very possible or even almost certain that our descendants will treat us in almost the same way as we treating barbarian for example– until humans society won’t stop expand in the future that should happened.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
Probably because I haven't been forced to do that – by starvation for an example. It’s not about that is gross for me or would makes me feel uncomfortable. To be honest if humanity would stop eating meals at all – that wouldn’t be any problem for me. I’m not the vegetarian mostly because it’s easier in life to do not be him. I’m very lazy and don’t real care about what exactly I’m eating so if shops and restaurants provide unrecognizable substitute for meals – I'm okey with that.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods,
being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc.
it would be cheaper to do it?
As I said in the previous answer, I don’t really care about the history about my dish. I just need from them to be healthy, tasty and being in the same price, if that could happen, I wouldn't have any problem with living as a vegetarian.
1. Do you think it is possible/probable that our descendants will look on us and our treatment of non-human animals with the same reaction as we are looking at the shameful and horrible parts of history? There was a post above about mussels and there was a similar question. I think not much has changed since our past attitudes towards animals. I think here in Europe you rarely see stray animals, or harsh treatment of animals. Vegetarianism is becoming popular here. But there are countries of the so-called "third world" where no one cares about this, because people themselves need to somehow survive and vegetarianism is not an option for them. Perhaps when the food industry is at a high level and is available to everyone, something may change. I will tell you more that in many CIS countries stray dogs are still shot because they are not needed by anyone.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy? I don't know, I am sorry but I eat them. Actually I love meat and can't live without meat, I can't imagine myself being vegeterian
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods, being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc. it would be cheaper to do it? Would you do it?
Yes probably I would try that. But how about that animals eat each other, Let's think about that then. We should find replacement for everyone.
Hi Zhypargul Maraeva Thanks for the comment. I just wanted to address your comment which states: "But how about that animals eat each other, Let's think about that then. We should find replacement for everyone." I think the difference is that people are able to find the replacement for animal suffering. We can choose between pain and our pleasure or being vegetarian/vegan. We don't have to offer the replacement for animals because they cannot choose. They are doing what is necessary for them to survive, which I would highly recommend if your case would be similar.
1. Do you think it is possible/probable that our descendants will look on us and our treatment of non-human animals with the same reaction as we are looking at the shameful and horrible parts of history? I think human morality is continuously evolving. As a species, we have done many morally reprehensible things in the past. Think about holocaust, slavery or witch hunts. A lot of time needs to pass before our descendants realize that our times were the ‘dark ages’ of animal treatment. Change comes slowly but steadily.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy? I’m not into cat meat. On a more serious note, we live in times of prosperity. There’s no shortage of food, at least in first world countries. That’s why we don’t even consider eating meat which is outside or a typical human diet. In other words, we don’t eat cats because we are not used to it. We don’t even have an opinion on how tasty cat meat is. There’s also the aspect of emotional attachment. Eating a pet may be seen as showing lack of respect to the dead because we have fond memories with the now-dead animal.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods, being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc. it would be cheaper to do it? Would you do it? I think being vegetarian can save you a significant amount of money because meat is generally expensive, especially the good quality one. The problem of cutting down on meat in your diet is that it takes a lot of effort and planning to find plan-based equivalents which can replace the micro- and macroelements we take from meat. All vegetarians I know are generally conscious about their eating habits, that is, avoiding meat is just one aspect of their elaborate diets.
1.Seeing how many especially young people decide to change their diet to the vegetarian or vegan one, there is a big possibility that our descendants will look at us differently. Nowadays people are more aware of the situation of animals which are used for human needs usually in very a brutal way. Fortunately there are a lot of organisations that protest against those inhuman treatment of animals and even some big cosmetic or food brands had to change their policy.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy? (a cat from video)
I think this results from the culture I was raised in. In Europe and hence Poland, cats are known as domestic animals and eating a cat would be considered as something not only extremely odd but also terrifying. I know that in other continents are completely different cultures and food traditions that may be weird for Europeans. I couldn’t eat Fluffy because it was a cat, but I also couldn’t eat Guinea Pig, which is one of the delicacies in Peru. The reason is the same. I was taught that it may be a pet not a food.
3.If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan would you do it?
The main reason I am not a vegan or vegetarian is that I have a big problem with absorption of iron and other minerals. It means, that if I completely eliminate meat from my diet, it will be very difficult for me to substitute it. But even if there was a possibility to find good replacement of meat, I don’t know if I could be a vegetarian or vegan because I love to try new food, which sometimes contains fish, meat or other animal products.
Thanks for that recommendation! I’ve already seen similar videos in the past on the topic of why vegans don’t consume animal products, even though the production of them doesn’t seem to harm the animals directly. I’m always eager to learn about new ways in which I can improve my habits, that will have a positive impact on the environment. It’s shocking to me, how people exploit animals so cruelly only for their profits. I’m still hoping that humans will develop more empathy in this matter.
1. No, I do not. In my opinion, eating animals will never be considered bad, after all, eating meat was an important step in human evolution. 2. Who said I wouldn't eat? Guinea pigs are a delicacy in Peru and they said to be very tasty. I would love to try them. 3. Personally, I like meat very much and it would be hard for me to give it up. I like various vegan / vegetarian products, but I cannot give up meat. Maybe as vegan food gets better it will be easier, but right now it's too hard for me.
When it comes to testing cosmetics - yes. But maybe it'll end soon because there are not a lot of new cosmetics introduced in past years. But when it comes to eating meat there's no substitute currently. Meat is simply cheaper than vegan products and it's a huge deal for many people.
If I would live with Fluffy for a few years it would be simply gross to eat him. It's an emotional connection. And it's not present when buying meat in the shop, at least for me.
I like both meat and vegan. A balanced diet is very important and if only vegan food was cheaper I would switch my habits to something like 20%meat/80%vegan.
1. Do you think it is possible/probable that our descendants will look on us and our treatment of non-human animals with the same reaction as we are looking at the shameful and horrible parts of history?
Possible - of course, nearly everything is possible, even that there will be no descendants at all. Or they will eat more meat than we. Or they will live on the other planet where the concepts of meat and plants won't be separate. A lot of possibilities. Probable? Well, if anyone here said that they could count the probability of such thing - don't trust such people, they are definitely trying to sell you something.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
Culture. We don't eat pets, walk nude outside or dance on funerals, but it doesn't mean that no one in other cultures does so. And also we are not eating our friends, so... If Fluffy was a chicken or a pig I also won't eat it.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods, being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc. it would be cheaper to do it? Would you do it?
Well, maybe. It would also be better for ecology and economics, so why not. As soon as you find them, I mean these replacements should have the same taste as non-vegan products, write to me, please. Cause I have no problems being vegan except all you have mentioned.
1. Do you think it is possible/probable that our descendants will look on us and our treatment of non-human animals with the same reaction as we are looking at the shameful and horrible parts of history?
Even now we look at certain animal treatments of some other people as quite shameful, especially any kind of abuse. I think it could be possible, but only if there will be no need to eat them and it will become how most people would feel about it.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
I think I am taught to consider certain animals in ways that vary from the rest, like the products in the store. The thought of perceiving most of them as food is very unsettling and emotionally uncomfortable to me, especially if I feel bonded to them. I'm also quite sentimental.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods, being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc. it would be cheaper to do it? Would you do it?
If that would be possible, I would be quite happy about it. However, I have trouble with iron in my blood, so I do need to eat meat and fish.
1. Do you think it is possible/probable that our descendants will look on us and our treatment of non-human animals with the same reaction as we are looking at the shameful and horrible parts of history? I am more than sure that it will be the case. Our ideas of living will be contradicted in minds of future generation. The same we look with disgust how horses were treated in second world war. I would not call it shameful or horrible though. It is just a process in evolution of culture. Mentioned future generation will have their own beliefs that will be opposite to the generation that will be after.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy? I would not eat Fluffy, because I avoid meat as much as possible. I do not feel well eating meet and it is really expensive anyways. 3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan • being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods, • being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc. • it would be cheaper to do it? Would you do it? I am partially vegetarian already. I have read somewhere that there exists meat substitute, so called vegan burgers. There was even debate in European Union Parliament about them. The topis was whether they indeed could be called vegan burgers or the name burger is reserved for real meet burgers. I do not go to restaurants so it does not affect me too much. I buy my vege food in supermarkets and such. If vege food was cheaper it would be the last nail in the coffin for meat products in my opinion.
I think that it will be inevitable. Lab-grown meat is already on its way and the Vegetarian and Vegan trends are more and more popular. However, in my opinion, people in the future will mostly despise the way we treated the animals and not necessarily focus on the sole fact of eating them. There is a huge difference between a happy hen living in the countryside and got eaten one day, then force-feed chickens that haven't seen the sun in their whole lives.
To be honest I am a little bit specists myself because I eat fish and no other animals. I pity them but my diet is a compromise between what I like to eat and personal code of ethics. I don't perceive fish as a friend that can be at any level reason with. Besides the way they are bread or catch are usually better than how we treat mammals. Fish have also more labels like "Dolphin Safe" that reassures me that they were caught without damaging dolphins ecosystems. There no such labels on steaks, unfortunately. However, all of this is some kind of rationalisation on my part, because I also refuse to kill insects, even mosquitos. Yes, they are irritating but some people are even more irritating and, well, I don't kill them for it...
It is easier to go vegetarian or vegan those days, however not necessarily cheaper. You could think that vegetables are less expensive so the food should be too. Not at all! I'm not sure why that is. Is it really cheaper to rise a chicken than to grow a pumpkin? If that's the case there is really something wrong with this world.
The problem with ecological cars emission in UK Since the adoption of the European Emission Allowance Directive in the European Parliament, all car makers have tried to submit. Since 1992, the Euro I standard has been in force, which limited the emission of carbon monoxide to the atmosphere. The Euro VI standard currently applies, which limits the series of exhaust gases. These include: hydrocarbons, nitrogen and carbon oxides, and dust. The most significant change was brought by the Euro IV standard. For the first time it introduced the limitation of nitrogen oxides, which are responsible for the harmful compounds of smog. What is smog? Smog consists of sulfur oxides, nitrogen and carbon. In addition, solid substances such as suspended dust (PM). Dust suspend in atmospheric aerosols may be in liquid and solid form. These can be particles of sea salt, clouds from the Sahara and artificial compounds made by people. These compounds often come fr
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For testing cosmetics and hurting them yes. For storing them in a tight cage propably yes. But for just eating the ones we were taught to eat I think no.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
Tough one. I would say becuase of propably hundreds of years some animals were used in certain ways. Pigs for meat mostly and fat, chicken for eggs, feathers and meat, while cats and dogs were more of companion animal. They were higher in the rank tough they helped us survive almost like other animals. Cats for example tend to hunt mice and others which could destroy our winter supplies for example. Propably because of how many years our ancestor used those animals more like partners and because we tend to live with them under same roof while cows, pigs and other in seperate place, made us more emotional about them and we treat them like part of our family.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods,
being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc. it would be cheaper to do it? Would you do it?
Our ancestor were mostly vegans for big amount of time as meat wasn't so easy to acquire. It was served during some holy days or family gathering like wedding. So I wouldn't mind eating things made from non-meat sources as I don't mind it know, it is nice alternative also somewhat healthy, but I would never become only vegan. I believe from time to time let's say few days in a month I would love to eat some meat.
thanks for your input!
I'd love to eat some meat as well, and I'm not entirely sure why do you think it is ok, even though it directly implies such treatment of animals? The ancestor argument doesn't convince me.
I feel like what we eat and what we don’t is just the cultural fact. We were growing up with dogs, cats and hamsters. Since we were born we’ve treated them like family. 90% of us have also never seen a real cow or pig. This is why we don’t really feel their pain because their existence is not as obvious for us as the existence of our pets which have been with us everyday for our whole lives. Of course, we know what cows look like, but have we ever touched it? Talked with it, just like we do with our dogs? I wouldn’t say this is because we prefer dogs to cows, I would say that this is because in our culture we do not have cows in our homes as parts of families. But if we did, if I was born with a cow or pig right next to my bed and spent my whole life with it, I guess, I would never even think about eating it.
I was thinking about becoming vegetarian so many times. This summer I had a chance to visit my boyfriend’s sister, who is living in Swiss and is vegan. We’ve been there for 10 days and it was 10 days of vegan diet. And honestly - it was the best 10 days of my life. I loved the food so much. It was delicious, I would even say it was much better than normal food. But the thing was that it was so expensive and not as easy to make as chicken… But if it was cheaper, easier, and everything you mentioned in your question, I think I would really love to try.
thanks for the comment! I agree with you that "the harm happening to other humans will always be a little bit more harmful to think about than the harm happening to animals". I also totally get your point about a vegan diet being expensive, especially if you wanna eat meat/diary alternatives on daily basis. On the other hand, as far as I know, the vegan/vegetarian diet could be even cheaper if you think about it or do some research. I don't want to recommend any diet, but if you are determined and consult your goal with dietitians* you could be living "best ten days of your life" everyday :)
*I don't think that you have to consult with a dietitian to be healthy on such a diet. It would imply that it is easy to do it in the wrong way. I think it is just the most reasonable thing to do if you don't have any knowledge or experience with diets of any sort.
2. I think this is a very cultural issue. Personally, I wouldn't eat many animals. I would not eat a rabbit, a deer, or a dolphin because I value these animals too much. On the other hand, I would not eat a dog, horse or pigeon because it would be slightly disgusting to me. In Peru, eating guinea pigs, or in China, eating dogs is the order of the day. Objectively speaking, the suffering of one animal is not worth more or less than the suffering of another. We should not require other cultures to stop eating what we don't like that they are eating. However, no matter what animal is eaten by which culture, it should have the best conditions and should be killed humanely.
3. Unfortunately, for health reasons, meat is one of the few things I can eat at the moment. However, I would love to live in a world where I don't have to eat meat and no animal has to suffer (John Lennon - Imagine playing in the backgroun)
Btw. I hate these troglodytes which say things like: a dish must have two kinds of meat to be sure that more than one animal has died.
It may be possible. It depends on how society will grow, and how our eating habits are going to change. For now, avoiding meat is rather expensive and the flavor of dishes that are supposed to be similar to meat isn't perfect, but maybe in the future we will be able to do something with it.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
I think it's more of an emotional issue. Fluffy was my friend, so I wouldn't eat him. I also wouldnt eat a chicken, if I had it as a pet.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods,
being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc.
it would be cheaper to do it?
Would you do it?
Yes, if there was sucha possibility, I would try it. For now it's too expensive for me, so I didn't even have an opportunity to try any food that tries to copy meat's flavor.
If to talk about using animals for food, it seems to me that it will be almost no negative reaction. People did, do and will do even more sick and shame actions. Moreover, I am sure that our descendants will continue to eat meat.
But if to talk about the treatment of non-human animals for products testing, here it is probable. In the food industry, there is also an exception: raising geese for the production of foie gras. The situations like testing cosmetics on rabbits, growing animals for the leather and fur are disgusting. Nowadays we can make warm clothes and good cosmetics without torturing animals.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
First of all, I think the reason is about affection for pets. Often people see their cats or dogs as a family member and after its death owners bury pet as a human. That is why it is unacceptable to eat them.
Secondly, eating meat that you bought in the supermarket or your pet after killing are two incompatible things. Even though a lot of people eat meat, not so many of us can kill an animal on our own.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods,
being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc.
it would be cheaper to do it? Would you do it?
If the statements above will be true I will at least try. I am not a vegetarian but it was a period when I wasn`t allowed to eat meat. And to be honest, I never got full and always wanted to eat.
Honestly, I don't think so. An amount of people on the world are constantly increasing. Nowadays a huge group of mankind is starving. I think that in the future this problem won't disappear and to the opposite it'll touch more of us. So in my opinion the process of breeding will stay increased.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
I'm not a huge fan of meat but probably it's because of cute pictures which go around through the Internet.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods
I don't think so. It's not enough for true meat-lovers. Additionally, our growth and evolution were possible because of the fact that people were starting to eat meat.
being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc.
It's a good idea. Not for become a vegetarian or vegan but for decline a consumption of meat.
it would be cheaper to do it?
Absolutely not. Vege-foods (like tofu) are often distasteful. To make it possible to eat the cook need to have strong skills in the kitchen.
2. I guess we don't eat our pets because we knew them and got used to them. There is nothing strange in this, if we buy meat that is processed and packed in a clean container, we do not identify with an animal some of which lies in this container, we hope that it had a good life and that eating it does not hurt him. If, however, we were to process the meat of a cat that has accompanied us for many years, we feel disgust because we treat him as part of the family and not an animal.
3. Eating animals is not a bad idea. If animals are free and caught by humans, that's nature, each species is somewhere in the species hierarchy, and each has a different species to eat and by which it is eaten. Even if being a vegan would be very simple and cheaper, I would not give up eating meat or fish because I do not see anything wrong with it, as long as the animals are free.
I’m certain that our descendants will be disappointed with our actions because I’m already disappointed with other people’s attitudes. As mentioned in the video, you can’t really persuade or discuss this topic with people who just don’t care. But what really strikes me, is that so many people, who swear to be animal lovers are still saying that reducing their consumption of meat is too hard or too expensive. Let’s start with prices, vegetables and fruits are far cheaper than meat and they’re more filling without giving you a heartburn or high cholesterol. Moreover, many discount stores like Lidl, sell an expansive range of plant-based products in the same price range as regular dairy products, they also have a wide variety of meat substitutes like vegan patties and plant-based minced ‘meat’, again in the same price range as the originals. As goes for taste, this is really personal, and you can’t force anyone to like something that they don’t. Unfortunately, many people associate being vegan with only eating lettuce without any seasoning, and they couldn’t be more wrong. The internet is filled with the tastiest and at the same time healthiest recipes. Many of them include spices from all over the world, allowing you to experience a whole new level of taste.
I was on the flexitarian diet since middle school, so believe me when I say it that it’s hard to change, and sometimes exclude yourself from your family’s traditions and habits, but it’s not impossible if you really want it. Flexitarian diet means mostly eating vegetarian products, but indulging in meat products from time to time. In my case, I was mostly eating vegetarian, but I used to order sushi on my birthdays as a treat. I’ve gone fully vegetarian for over a year now, and if I’m using animal products like dairy, eggs or honey I order it from my friends or nearby farmers, so I know almost exactly how they treat their animals.
I hope it covers the question of why I wouldn’t eat Fluffy.
As mentioned in the video, we seem to care more about animals with which we can develop some sort of bond, and there is a big issue with the consumption of fish and other marine animals. In fact, when I ask for a vegetarian option, for example on a business trip, people often suggest eating a fish. We’re not exactly close to fishes and we can’t much emphasize with them, as they don’t vocalize their pain. If you would like to see more about this topic I recommend you to check out this video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/y8Nj1-YZDlc
If anyone reading this is still not convinced that going on a plant-based diet is within your reach, I would like to give an example of my friend who’s been vegan for 10 years and lives in a small village in southern Poland. She’s not a farmer, she works remotely in a headhunter firm. Even though she lives far from fancy stores with a limitless range of products, she still manages to get around, because you can buy vegetables anywhere. It’s a small neighbourhood, so everyone knows each other and so she asked the store nearby to order vegan substitutes for meat. So there you have it, it’s possible to be vegan/vegetarian on a budget, wherever you live and whatever cuisine you prefer, the only thing that it takes is an effort.
Thanks for the comment!
I loved your comment "I don't have to eat meat and no animal has to suffer (John Lennon - Imagine playing in the background)"! 😂 I'd love to live in such a world as well! We as individuals can do a lot to take as close to that place? Have you considered any action, that one person could take?
Thanks for the input!
I don't think that what you've said is completely clear for me.
"... If to talk about using animals for food, it seems to me that it will be almost no negative reaction. " and "
People did, do and will do even more sick and shame actions."
In both of these sentences, you agree that it is shameful and sick as there are more of such actions that human perform. But also it seems that you said that if people do something for a long time it becomes acceptable. I don't think it is the case. We can see that we develop morally and don't do things that in the past was acceptable or we do things that in the past was unacceptable but we've realised that it is good and we shouldn't hesitate.
Could you clear up my doubts? What is the difference between meat production and cosmetic/drug testing if in both of these industries animals are suffering enormously?
I'm also happy you would try this lifestyle not only a diet. If you have some free time check out if those stated conditions aren't met already!
Thanks for the comment!
The first point you make is really important and smart! However, as far as I know, it is far from the truth. If we would use the food/land that we use for producing forage for developed countries we would be able to completely get rid of world hunger. If you are interested in the data that support that statement I would be happy to add some or you could check it out yourself :).
And to address this passage: "Additionally, our growth and evolution were possible because of the fact that people were starting to eat meat."
We are far beyond such times! We can think about what is good for our health, climate and suffering of animals!
I'm thankful for your comment because it addresses many of my concerns about this topic.
You argued that when animals are free and are able to roam wherever they want it is ok to kill them. And I don't think so. Additionally, I haven't heard about the production of meat that wouldn't make an animal suffer. We want to have meat as cheap as possible as fast as possible, there is no way to meet those conditions and be treat humanly the animals (but I don't understand what is humane in killing other sentient beings).
Hi Gabriela! I was looking forward to answering your comment as I really enjoyed your presentation about oceans! You've perfectly described the way I see this problem. It is really not that hard to change your diet/lifestyle as you've clearly pointed out! I'm glad we have similar perspective!
However, you have added the video about fishes and their suffering. I'd like to add information about honey and eggs!
Feel free to comment on that as well!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YFz99OT18k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clMNw_VO1xo&feature=emb_title
2. I wouldn’t eat Fluffy because I generally don’t eat meat. But I suppose that people eating meat wouldn’t eat Fluffy because of common approach to not eat domestic animals. Of course I don’t know why pigs, chickens and other does count to eatable animals. I suppose it started thousand years ago, while homo sapience started to breed animals. Maybe it was because of easiness to breed herbivorous animals. Maybe dogs and cats wasn’t so gentle as cows and pigs. I guess that Fluffy became a member of family. They growth special filling for him. He was bought/adopted to be their partner in live. I think all this has start in early years of homo sapience existence.
3. I already don’t eat meat. I didn’t have trouble because of meat flavour and taste. I have a lot of empathy, imagination and knowledge about meat industry. My feelings was bigger than miss of taste. But I have never been very meat gourmet so I understand others problems. And I keep my fingers crossed for those who have problem with that and wish them strong resistance.
I biggest problems about vegetarianism are lack of vege dishes in some restaurants. But in Warsaw I can’t complain. Another problem are dinners at my parents/grandparents homes. They all eat meat. I am the only vegetarian. Sometimes I feel like trouble for them when I refuse to eat meat. Especially when my grandma look at me like on poor child. I understand they behaviour. They were told, that it is unhealthy to not eat meat. It is hard for them to believe in new point of view. I understand that, but sometimes it is hard to explain them my decision again and again. But I see it as a worry.
In my opinion its very possible or even almost certain that our descendants will treat us in almost the same way as we treating barbarian for example– until humans society won’t stop expand in the future that should happened.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
Probably because I haven't been forced to do that – by starvation for an example. It’s not about that is gross for me or would makes me feel uncomfortable. To be honest if humanity would stop eating meals at all – that wouldn’t be any problem for me. I’m not the vegetarian mostly because it’s easier in life to do not be him. I’m very lazy and don’t real care about what exactly I’m eating so if shops and restaurants provide unrecognizable substitute for meals – I'm okey with that.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods,
being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc.
it would be cheaper to do it?
As I said in the previous answer, I don’t really care about the history about my dish. I just need from them to be healthy, tasty and being in the same price, if that could happen, I wouldn't have any problem with living as a vegetarian.
There was a post above about mussels and there was a similar question. I think not much has changed since our past attitudes towards animals. I think here in Europe you rarely see stray animals, or harsh treatment of animals. Vegetarianism is becoming popular here. But there are countries of the so-called "third world" where no one cares about this, because people themselves need to somehow survive and vegetarianism is not an option for them. Perhaps when the food industry is at a high level and is available to everyone, something may change.
I will tell you more that in many CIS countries stray dogs are still shot because they are not needed by anyone.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
I don't know, I am sorry but I eat them. Actually I love meat and can't live without meat, I can't imagine myself being vegeterian
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods,
being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc.
it would be cheaper to do it?
Would you do it?
Yes probably I would try that. But how about that animals eat each other, Let's think about that then. We should find replacement for everyone.
Thanks for the comment. I just wanted to address your comment which states: "But how about that animals eat each other, Let's think about that then. We should find replacement for everyone."
I think the difference is that people are able to find the replacement for animal suffering. We can choose between pain and our pleasure or being vegetarian/vegan. We don't have to offer the replacement for animals because they cannot choose. They are doing what is necessary for them to survive, which I would highly recommend if your case would be similar.
I think human morality is continuously evolving. As a species, we have done many morally reprehensible things in the past. Think about holocaust, slavery or witch hunts. A lot of time needs to pass before our descendants realize that our times were the ‘dark ages’ of animal treatment. Change comes slowly but steadily.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
I’m not into cat meat. On a more serious note, we live in times of prosperity. There’s no shortage of food, at least in first world countries. That’s why we don’t even consider eating meat which is outside or a typical human diet. In other words, we don’t eat cats because we are not used to it. We don’t even have an opinion on how tasty cat meat is. There’s also the aspect of emotional attachment. Eating a pet may be seen as showing lack of respect to the dead because we have fond memories with the now-dead animal.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods,
being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc.
it would be cheaper to do it? Would you do it?
I think being vegetarian can save you a significant amount of money because meat is generally expensive, especially the good quality one. The problem of cutting down on meat in your diet is that it takes a lot of effort and planning to find plan-based equivalents which can replace the micro- and macroelements we take from meat. All vegetarians I know are generally conscious about their eating habits, that is, avoiding meat is just one aspect of their elaborate diets.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy? (a cat from video)
I think this results from the culture I was raised in. In Europe and hence Poland, cats are known as domestic animals and eating a cat would be considered as something not only extremely odd but also terrifying. I know that in other continents are completely different cultures and food traditions that may be weird for Europeans. I couldn’t eat Fluffy because it was a cat, but I also couldn’t eat Guinea Pig, which is one of the delicacies in Peru. The reason is the same. I was taught that it may be a pet not a food.
3.If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan would you do it?
The main reason I am not a vegan or vegetarian is that I have a big problem with absorption of iron and other minerals. It means, that if I completely eliminate meat from my diet, it will be very difficult for me to substitute it. But even if there was a possibility to find good replacement of meat, I don’t know if I could be a vegetarian or vegan because I love to try new food, which sometimes contains fish, meat or other animal products.
2. Who said I wouldn't eat? Guinea pigs are a delicacy in Peru and they said to be very tasty. I would love to try them.
3. Personally, I like meat very much and it would be hard for me to give it up. I like various vegan / vegetarian products, but I cannot give up meat. Maybe as vegan food gets better it will be easier, but right now it's too hard for me.
If I would live with Fluffy for a few years it would be simply gross to eat him. It's an emotional connection. And it's not present when buying meat in the shop, at least for me.
I like both meat and vegan. A balanced diet is very important and if only vegan food was cheaper I would switch my habits to something like 20%meat/80%vegan.
Possible - of course, nearly everything is possible, even that there will be no descendants at all. Or they will eat more meat than we. Or they will live on the other planet where the concepts of meat and plants won't be separate. A lot of possibilities. Probable? Well, if anyone here said that they could count the probability of such thing - don't trust such people, they are definitely trying to sell you something.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
Culture. We don't eat pets, walk nude outside or dance on funerals, but it doesn't mean that no one in other cultures does so. And also we are not eating our friends, so... If Fluffy was a chicken or a pig I also won't eat it.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods,
being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc.
it would be cheaper to do it?
Would you do it?
Well, maybe. It would also be better for ecology and economics, so why not. As soon as you find them, I mean these replacements should have the same taste as non-vegan products, write to me, please. Cause I have no problems being vegan except all you have mentioned.
Even now we look at certain animal treatments of some other people as quite shameful, especially any kind of abuse. I think it could be possible, but only if there will be no need to eat them and it will become how most people would feel about it.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
I think I am taught to consider certain animals in ways that vary from the rest, like the products in the store. The thought of perceiving most of them as food is very unsettling and emotionally uncomfortable to me, especially if I feel bonded to them. I'm also quite sentimental.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods,
being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc.
it would be cheaper to do it?
Would you do it?
If that would be possible, I would be quite happy about it. However, I have trouble with iron in my blood, so I do need to eat meat and fish.
I am more than sure that it will be the case. Our ideas of living will be contradicted in minds of future generation. The same we look with disgust how horses were treated in second world war. I would not call it shameful or horrible though. It is just a process in evolution of culture. Mentioned future generation will have their own beliefs that will be opposite to the generation that will be after.
2. Why wouldn't you eat Fluffy?
I would not eat Fluffy, because I avoid meat as much as possible. I do not feel well eating meet and it is really expensive anyways.
3. If it would be easy to become vegetarian/vegan
• being able to easily find replacements of favourite foods,
• being able to find nice restaurants without any trouble that serve tasty vegan dishes etc.
• it would be cheaper to do it?
Would you do it?
I am partially vegetarian already. I have read somewhere that there exists meat substitute, so called vegan burgers. There was even debate in European Union Parliament about them. The topis was whether they indeed could be called vegan burgers or the name burger is reserved for real meet burgers. I do not go to restaurants so it does not affect me too much. I buy my vege food in supermarkets and such. If vege food was cheaper it would be the last nail in the coffin for meat products in my opinion.
To be honest I am a little bit specists myself because I eat fish and no other animals. I pity them but my diet is a compromise between what I like to eat and personal code of ethics. I don't perceive fish as a friend that can be at any level reason with. Besides the way they are bread or catch are usually better than how we treat mammals. Fish have also more labels like "Dolphin Safe" that reassures me that they were caught without damaging dolphins ecosystems. There no such labels on steaks, unfortunately. However, all of this is some kind of rationalisation on my part, because I also refuse to kill insects, even mosquitos. Yes, they are irritating but some people are even more irritating and, well, I don't kill them for it...
It is easier to go vegetarian or vegan those days, however not necessarily cheaper. You could think that vegetables are less expensive so the food should be too. Not at all! I'm not sure why that is. Is it really cheaper to rise a chicken than to grow a pumpkin? If that's the case there is really something wrong with this world.