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Week 1 [03.10-09.10.2016] Black Monday: Polish women strike against abortion ban

Read the article Black Monday: Polish women strike against abortion ban at

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37540139  and state your opinion on it/discuss it. 

Comments

kondrat said…
In my opinion the proposed law has no chance to be adopted. The current law is properly averaged between two sides of this conflict.
In my opinion it its very difficult topic to talk about. It's great that polish women stood up for their rights but I feel like this whole strike-thing was just a red herring for some serious things going on in the corridors of parliament.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said…
I fully agree that the issue is difficult to talk about.
There are a lots of factors that are taken under consideration for example: declaration of faith or some moral issues. But in my opinion the choice should be left for woman's conscience.

Take a look on current paradox - woman can travel for example to Germany or Czech Republic and do abortion almost without any bigger problems. In my opinion if the government adopted the new law, the abortion turism would rise and the problem will still remain.

In my opinion the law on abortion should be unchanged but i haven't read exactly this project of abortion.
In my opinion the law on abortion should be unchanged but i haven't read exactly this project of abortion.
Dajana Kubica said…
The family of unborn child should decide itself whether it is able to undertake the obligation to care for a sick child. Mother and her family will have to deal with the difficulties of bringing up a child for whole life, not the government. I think the law on abortion should stay as it is right now. In emergency situations, doctors will not be able to help the patient to save her life because the law will not allow it. Faith should not be blind people, but unfortunately still a lot of people in Poland does not think about the consequences of their actions.
Dajana Kubica said…
I think foreign abortion would not be big problem, because most people in Poland do not have the money to afford it.
I feel like a lot of people didn't even read the actual act and relied on some loudmouths opinion. People on social media say that a woman can be punished if she unintentionally miscarried while it clearly says "Nie podlega karze matka dziecka poczętego, która dopuszcza się czynu określonego w § 2." where §2 states "Jeżeli sprawca czynu określonego w § 1 działa nieumyślnie, podlega karze pozbawienia wolności do lat 3.". And if she did that intentionally she can be punished but not necessarily has to be.
It is also said that a woman can also end pregnancy if it's a real danger to her life so that remains unchanged.
I agree that it's misguided and should be worked on if we are to ban it completely or partially. But in the end I think it should stay as it is now.
Unknown said…
In my opinion this proposal was bad and made no sense. The law shouldn't be changed. I agree with the demonstriation . Now we know that the proposal didn't go through and i think that the parliament discussed this proposioal to hide something bigger.
Unknown said…
In my opinion this proposal was bad and made no sense. The law shouldn't be changed. I agree with the demonstriation . Now we know that the proposal didn't go through and i think that the parliament discussed this proposioal to hide something bigger.
Unknown said…
I don't really know why such a lot of women went out to the streets. This is all about banning the right to abortion. And in my opinion abortion is a sort of a murder. They will say "Cmon, it's just foetus, it's not the man". For me it's really stupid to think like that, I mean...If the woman is pregnant, she carries a life inside her. It doesn't matter if it's 5th month, 9th month or just 1st week, there is a human being! So having an abortion is actually killing the new life. And that's really wrong. How is it different from killing the adult man? murder is murder. The women say: "Oh, it's not about abortion, it's about having a choice!" Is it? A choice to do what? To kill legally! For me it's simple. There is always a choice. For example if a woman was raped...and she learn that she is pregnant, probably she wouldn't like to have this baby, to raise it up. Instead of killing it she can bear it and then give it for adoption or somewhere. There is always a choice. But why after such a tragedy which rape is...adding another tragedy? In my opinion it stays inside your head and your heart forever. But I know it's very hard and delicate issue to discuss.
Right in the point!
Right in the point!
Unknown said…
Are you sure? Money is the smallest problem.
Firstly, Polish people are not so poor (or travel abroad is not so expensive).
Secondly, desperate person can do a lot to achieve the goal. Especially, if it is goal like this.

I cannot agree with Damian who says "in my opinion the choice should be left for woman's conscience". It's not about conscience. Some life situations are very difficult (money, food, living conditions) and people (not only women) decide through this prism and we shouldn't agree with such decision.
On the other hand, there are life threatening situations. In this case, abortion should be banned? What about woman or child who cannot survive?
It's difficult issue and I'm fully convinced that the law cannot be directed to one side.
I think that abortion in some cases is the right choice.
I could not imagine the situation when women was raped and she is forced to carry a child from it. It could destroy her mind.
In such case if you really need to introduce the abortion ban you should also provide her with psychologist care to help her handle this crisis.

Everything is about right education, not about making rules to obey. If you educate people you won' t need any restrictions. For example in Scandinavian countries you don' t have any prohibitions acording abortion, it is fully legal there. Despite this they have the lowest percentage of abortions. This is because of a very good sexual education.
Yeah that's true unfortunately, people don't think about the consequences of their doings.
I think you should have the free choice in such situations. You will be the person responsible for caring about this sick child and in most cases you won't have any help from government.
Unknown said…
It's really hard topic. In my opinion women should decide for itself. In this case it's a matter of conscience, religion and beliefs and as we know everyone has different. It's not like that I support abortion and for me it's hard to comment this, because I never had to stand in front of such a choice. Apart from abortion I think it's great that people in Poland begin openly show that they don't like what the government is doing.
Maciej Główka said…
abortion is generally really hard topic to discuss. I think, that women should have the right to decide for itself, whether to have an abortion or not.
On the other hand, many people, especially women, was misguided by media about the content of anti-abortion proposal. Many of them didn't read it by yourself, their point of view was created by media from both sides, which could easily manipulate it.
Number of protesters, who organized themselves in short period of time, is what should be remembered in my opinion. It shows, that topics like abortion should be gently discussed with nation.
Unknown said…
I agree with you, Nina. Abortion really is a hard topic. But the main problem of the new (offered) aborion law is that it sounds as if people who wrote it think, that women decide for abortion as a some kind of fun or contraception. They don't belive that most of women use it as the extremity.
I belive that it is very important for everyone to get the knowledge (of every aspect of this topic) and and try to be emphatic.
Knowledge and empathy are keys to understanding.
In my opinion, the current abortion law should stay intact. As stated in the article, abortion is already banned in most circumstances in Poland. Also, according to the estimates given in the article, there are far more illegal abortions than legal ones. This means that tightening of the law would most likely result in even larger amount of illegal abortions. You can't just force people not to do this and change their attitude to certain set of circumstances - it doesn't work this way.
Nevertheless, I am afraid that Black Monday is just the way in which politics are trying to draw our attention away from ongoing problems and conflicts, that are happening behind the scenes.
It is very controversial topic. Of course we should respect freedom of the woman but this this child is not only belong to woman but also to boyfriend. Why did he never have a choice? In my opinion abortion ban law should stay as is without any changes.
Andrzej Gulak said…
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kacper Zaremba said…
I personally think the bill in the current shape is a good compromise and I'm surprised that any government, no matter how conservative and right-winged it is, was willing to change it in such a radical way.
Piotr Basiński said…
I have no opinion on the subject, it is very difficult matter.
Unknown said…
I consider that choosing nonviolent means of communication with the state could lead to better consequences than fight, aggressiveness, and conflicts. Protest “Black Monday” in Poland shows us how nonviolent resistance could lead to significant results. It’s obvious that anti-abortion law could cause problems and it’s not the best way to save lives of people (the black market for abortion will appear for sure). But let’s take a brief look on the way which Polish woman have chosen to fight for their rights because, to my mind, we can learn more from the form of it, than the context.
Jamila Raqib in her presentation on TED Conference mentioned that her friend,Gene Sharp, has identified 198 methods of nonviolent action. And protest is only one of this ways. 198! Big number, isn’t it? I want to mention here just a part of this interesting talk, an example of Guatemala. “Until a few months ago, Guatemala was ruled by corrupt former military officials with ties to organized crime. People were generally aware of this, but most of them felt powerless to do anything about it - until one group of citizens, just 12 regular people, put out a call on Facebook to their friends to meet in the central plaza, holding signs with a message: "Renuncia YA" - resign already. To their surprise, 30,000 people showed up. They stayed there for months as protests spread throughout the country. At one point, the organizers delivered hundreds of eggs to various government buildings with a message: "If you don't have the huevos" -- the balls -- "to stop corrupt candidates from running for office, you can borrow ours."”.
What I’ve learned from a protest in Poland and from the video, which I’ve mentioned above, is that citizens of a country can change everything. They need to use their assertiveness, persistence and … creativity. From my outside view as a foreigner, I think Polish people will not give a chance to limit their rights. For me, it shows the high development and consciousness of the nation.
As others stated already - abortion is a hard topic to talk about. There are many reasons behind it, one is that people have different definitions of a human being. The ability of a fetus to feel pain at different stages of its development is even debated by the scientists.

I think that abortion should be legal (or more widely available) than it is at the moment and involving the father in the decision itself is not a bad idea either (although it also seems really complicated to implement).

When it comes to the protest itself, I think that it was a good answer to the idea of imposing restrictions on an already strict law. I also wish that other decisions of the current government would meet with a similar response.
Unknown said…
I think that Mr. Kaczyński from the beginning was afraid of this law (originally it was not the idea of the party ​​Law and Justice), but he knew that many of his voters and the church that always supported him will be pushing, so government frightened the liberal part of society that they will implement the law completely prohibiting abortion. At the end of the conflict women went out on the streets to express their opposition to the rulling party. Few days later in the parliament they voted against this bill, saying that they were against it from the beginning, but the opposition was manipulating the situation. As we all saw, it was totally opposite. Typical for this group. These are the experts of scaring and nothing more.
Yeah everything is about the knowledge and in my opinion the government should provide it, at least in some part.
Unknown said…
Personally, I am against abortion, however I am not entitled to tell anyone how he/she should live. An also there are cases that law cannot handle, so officials debating if abortion should be legal in case of rape or when fetus is damaged, is not entertaining, nor wise and does not have any point. For me its grim and pathetic smoke screen that have been set up to cover our eyes from something, not yet sure what, just like some time ago death of innocent child have been used by media to hide ACTA.
It seems that this time it was about CETA.
Unknown said…
I support the right to have an abortion without limitations. I don't see anything wrong with it as long as it's not reapeatedly done for just the sake of it. I simply cannot imagine justifing any kind of law limiting what a person can do with their body. I also think that the father should also be able to decide to abort pregnancy and if the mother refuse he would be free from paying any kind of child support in the future. It's only fair this way. Abortion law is an issue for me personally as my girlfriend should not give birth due to her medical conditions and the medicine she has to take on daily baisis for the rest of her life both reduces effectivness of anticonception and could cause harm to the fetus.
I'm happy to see that a lot of people started to pay attention to potical scene in our country. Regardless of beliefs, the more conversations about certain topics we have the more people will find their true political views. It's better for our society to have more active citizens, instead of ones that are easily misguided by the media or simply repelled by the fact that there is so much conflict inside the country.
Moode said…
It was also amazing to see how people unite in such a short time to fight for their rights using social media the other thing that amazed me was to see how man stood and supported their women
Michał Pycek said…
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michał Pycek said…
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michał Pycek said…
It is a very personal and therefore controversial topic. I feel a bit uncomfortable talking about this topic, simply because it is women who are directly related to the core of it and no man can actually ever feel how they may feel about it.

I can totally understand why women had the urge to go out and become visible for the society, in order to show that they want to be heard and respected.
In my opinion the problem is that some people treat this topic like any other that can be easily framed and structured so there is a defined and unbreakable law or rule which must be followed.
The more we experience, we get to know that very often it is simply impossible to follow a general rule while we're talking about complex and life threatning problems of pregnancy which can cause death to a pregnant woman or an unborn child. It is so, because every situation like this is different, including different possibilities, solutions and consequences. Therefore I believe that women should have the right to decide, since it is them who actually are pregnant and deal with the issue which appears. I also agree that men could have a bigger say in this topic as fathers, but I still understand that some women really and truly find it very personal and want to be respected if it comes to the fact that they will have to deal with it directly.
Personally, I believe that at the end, it is still the woman which is already existing, functioning and living her life, so she should be the one to take the decision herself, since nobody will be able to be in her shoes and command what she should do.
Wojtek Kania said…
Abortion is very hard subject. Every woman should have got free decision. Policy and religion musn’t go hand in hand. These problem are not only a matter of politics, but also a matter of conscience. In my opinion abortion should be legal.
I took part in this strike and I totally support it. I don't support abortion at all, but in my opinion women should be able to do it under circumstances provided in the article (where the woman's life is in danger etc.), so current abortion law should stay as it is.

As my colleagues said, abortion is hard to discuss but one thing is sure, that it shouldn't be discussed without women.
Adam Nowak said…
Total abortion ban is a way, along with social programs like 500+, to fight against future demographic crisis in Poland. We don't know the exact number of illegal abortions in our country, but on a one abortion there are few births.
Only strict abortion ban would greatly reduce number of legal and illegal abortions, and it is a proven way to increase birth rate.
The fact that polish government considers using such options shows how critical is our demographic situation...
Unknown said…
I think that it is amazing that so many women were ready to fight for their rights. It would be outrageous if the government went through with it. However it is quite obvious that all of it was supposed to distract people from CETA - very disadvantageous agreement for Poland.
Unknown said…
I took part in the woman strike on the Black Monday, I saw how many people attended the protest with my own eyes. I'm glad that women of Poland didn't look idle on what's going on in our country. I'm glad to see every sign of support and solidarity coming from abroad. I think that celebrities and famous people joining in made a huge difference and inspired a lot of people to show up. Our government backed out from the civil project proposed by Ordo Luris but some party representatives already announced a plan to silently pass a similar law (as stupid as that sounds). It's a very difficult topic, personally I'm for liberalizing of abortion laws. What Ordo Luris (and likely the ruling party) is horrible and would work against saving lives.

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